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Talk:Natural weapon
Distinguishing the weapons from the weapon slots Something that still needs to be done is double-checking the links to this page to make sure they mean creature weapons, and not the creature items (slam, claw, etc.) that are typically used as creature weapons. (There also should be articles for the creature items, but that's another project.) --The Krit 20:25, 11 January 2008 (UTC) *I will be updating articles for consistency, but I do not quite see the reasoning behind your use of "creature item" and "creature weapon". Creature item is used in the Toolkit both to refer to just the skin item (item wizard) and also as a category including standard melee weapons that would be equipped in creature weapon slots. Creature weapon only seems to be used for bite, slam, gore, and claw both in the item wizard naming, and also from the use of the term in weapon proficiency (creature) a feat that has been working correctly from the OC time to now, though it looks like in the article discussion that there may have been a patch like 1.67 that could have messed it up until 1.69. WhiZard 13:35, January 16, 2012 (UTC) :* Let's see, what was I thinking about four years ago.... I was probably approaching this from the creature side rather than the item side. If you edit a creature's inventory in the Toolset and mouse over the creature weapon slots, the tooltip is "Creature item or regular weapon slot", which suggests that claw/bite/etc. items are "creature items", distinct from "regular weapons". I probably also thought to hit F1 from that screen, which brings up a window stating (among other things) "by equipping a creature item or weapon in it's sic claws and special attack slots", which also suggests that regular weapons are not "creature items". For the term "creature weapon", I was probably thinking of "CWEAPON" from the symbolic constants for the inventory slots (where more than just claw/bite/etc. can go). :: Probably the best thing to take form this is that BioWare can be inconsistent at times, particularly when dealing with text that would not be visible to someone playing the game. (Another example would be the weapon-specific feats – the names of the epic versions, i.e. the ones released with HotU, end with "(creature weapon)", while the ones released with the original game have names ending with "(creature)".) So what to do? There probably should be two articles, one describing the slots and the other describing the items, but what would be the names of the articles? Four years ago, I thought to use "creature weapon" for the former and "creature item" for the latter, but now I am thinking "natural weapon" for the former and "creature weapon" for the latter. (The tab for the slots is labeled "Natural Equipment", so it is somewhat natural :) to extend the term "natural" to the slots, getting "natural weapon".) Even this is not without its drawbacks though, as if you try to place a bite/claw/etc. item on the ground in the Toolset, you get the message "This type of object (natural creature equipment) cannot be placed in the area" which can be seen as suggesting that a sword (which can be placed on the ground) is not "natural" even though it can be placed in a creature weapon slot. Still, it is looking good to me at the moment. :: Would that work? I could move the current article to "natural weapon", put together a stub for "creature weapon", then split the current talk page between the two. --The Krit 22:36, January 16, 2012 (UTC) :::Both "natural weapon" and "creature weapon slot" look like good names for a slot description. WhiZard 03:23, January 17, 2012 (UTC) ::* Wikia is throwing conniption fits (again). In the past, I've been able to move a page then recreate what it was moved from, but this time I guess I'll have to wait a bit (a day? hopefully less) before recreating creature weapon. --The Krit 21:54, January 24, 2012 (UTC) * Got the creature weapon article restored (found a way around the conniptions). My thinking is that it should be a suitable reference for people looking up creatures (meaning that the articles about the various creatures with creature weapons should continue to link there instead of here). So I duplicated the more pertinent points from this article, namely the advantage versus damage reduction and (most importantly?) the lack of effect on attacks per round. Probably some more cleaning up to do, but that can wait until later. --The Krit 22:51, January 24, 2012 (UTC) :* Looks good, I'll add in a link for superior weapon focus, and add in the 20/x2 crit range override. WhiZard 23:25, January 24, 2012 (UTC) ::* Oh, right. Missed the 20/x2 (or lost it somewhere during the revisions). --The Krit 04:46, January 25, 2012 (UTC) Ranged creature weapons ? Sort of a random question, but can a creature weapon be ranged? My assumption is 'no', but I was thinking of a weapon like the manticore spikes, sort of a creature bow with the unlimited ammo item property. I know that the manticore's spikes are implemented as a special ability instead of a weapon, but could it be a ranged creature weapon? If it could, is there a base item that makes it possible without modifying 2da files, or would it require something akin to the changes made to make the CEP weapons available? - MrZork 17:37, October 30, 2010 (UTC) * I have thought about looking into this a few times, but never got further than confirming that no ranged weapons can be placed in the creature weapon slots in the Toolset. If you want to see how well it works in the game, you should be able to equip a ranged creature weapon with a relatively simple baseitems.2da override. Find the row for the item(s) you want to test, and change the "EquipableSlots" column either from "0x00030" to "0x1C030" or from "0x00010" to "0x1C010". Save it to your override directory, and -- assuming no haks are interfering -- the Toolset should let you equip those items to any creature weapon slot. Should. Unless there is something hardcoded blocking such a thing. --The Krit 00:35, October 31, 2010 (UTC) : Come to think of it, it might be fun/interesting to see what happens if you enable a non-weapon into a creature weapon slot. Same sort of change -- the double zero after "0x" becomes 1C in baseitems.2da. Unless you are dealing with bullets or bolts (which would be "0x01000" becomes "0x1D000" or "0x02000" becomes "0x1E000" instead). --The Krit 00:41, October 31, 2010 (UTC) :* Ranged weapons are no different than melee. Ammunition is not referred to or used, nor are throwing weapons exhausted. The range is the standard unarmed range regardless of weapon range or weapon size. Items that are not weapons do not have a damage type, and thus effectively work like gloves, preserving the unarmed damage (in bludgeoning). Items with a damage type will ignore the unarmed damage and use their damage type instead. For non-weapons it matters both what 2da was used to define the item and what 2da is used while using the item. Many changes can make the item unequipable (shown in red) or not used in standard combat. I have had many conflicting results for non-weapons. If the item is equipped and used it will not deal unarmed base damage. Anything in the glove slot will be used as the attack weapon rather than the weapon in the creature weapon slot (just as the mainhand slot overrides the gloves). WhiZard 18:34, January 21, 2012 (UTC) EDITED WhiZard 20:02, January 21, 2012 (UTC) ::* I said it might be fun to see what happens. :) (By the way, the and tags are useful in talk pages, if you would prefer logical markup.) --The Krit 23:06, January 21, 2012 (UTC) :::* Changed to the format. WhiZard 00:41, January 22, 2012 (UTC) Non-creature items I have looked into many non-creature items serving as weapons in creature weapon slots, and there does not seem to be a real advantage. #Base properties: All weapons in a creature weapon slot have no base damage (unless added by monster damage property, which non-creature items lack) and they all critical as 20/x2 regardless of the weapon's actual properties. #Item properties: Keen never works on any item in a creature weapon slot. Creature items have On Monster Hit, a property lacking for non-creature items. Creature items lack many item properties found on a standard weapon but all these except for holy avenger and extra damage type can be put on the skin. #Feats, Beneficial: Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Devastating Crit (and epics) will all look at the base item type in the creature slot. This is the only real advantage for having a non-creature item in a creature weapon slot. #Feats, Mutual: Improved critical and overwhelming critical will only work for unarmed (this makes the creature sub-type useless even for creature items). The base type of the item in the creature weapon slot is never used. #Feats, Unused: Weapon Master feats of Ki Critical and Increased Multiplier are not respected. In summary, non-creature items tend to be inferior to creature items when placed in a creature weapon slot. The only benefit is for a PC carrying over certain feats (focus, specialization, and devastating critical) or trying to stack certain item properties. For a monster, the creature item and skin can take care of more than a non-creature item and skin. WhiZard 08:44, January 15, 2012 (UTC) Damage Type how does the engine determine application of damage resistance? [nb- not reduction] si there something hardcoded which says 'gore and bite are piercing, claw is slashing, slam is bludgeoning'? - 07:19, February 13, 2012 (UTC) * There is nothing special here (if there was, the article would say so). Damage resistance is applied normally; a non-physical damage type is treated separately and applied against its associated resistance, while physical damage is applied against the lowest of the applicable physical damage resistances. There is nothing hardcoded or otherwise that says bite items are piercing, as they inflict slashing damage (also claw items are piercing-slashing, not just slashing). As for gore and slam, their damage types are no more hardcoded than daggers and maces — their damage types are defined in baseitems.2da, as are the (base) damage types for all weapons. --The Krit 16:59, February 13, 2012 (UTC)